Me ([info]coocoocthulhu) wrote,
@ 2005-03-08 00:55:00
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Can someone please, please explain to me why Hermione is "evil" because of her actions in OotP?

Yeah. Her morals were questionable at best. She put someone's life at severe risk. She completely humiliated one of her peers.

But how does this make her evil? Are we just supposed to completely ignore the scenarios surrounding these choices?

Yes, she did lead Umbridge into the forest, where she knew the centaurs would (to put it bluntly) finish her off, or at least keep her busy. However, I don't think she woke up that morning and thought "Hmmm, Umbridge has gone too far. Centaurs would be pissed off if she entered the forest, wouldn't they?"

I think it was more along the lines of 'No wand. Captured by seemingly psychotic student body. Interrogation by Frog-Face. She's going to torture Harry, this is all kinds of wrong. This is bad, this is very very bad...' "I know where Dumbledore's weapon is!"

What the fuck was she supposed to do? Use her l33t ninja powers to escape from Millicent's grasp, shatter Umbridge's wand with her SUPERIOR WANDLESS MAGICK, strip down to a leather bikini and heal everyone's souls with her magical tears?
And then make the sweet lurve with Draco because they're secretly soul-mates, right there in Umbridge's office in front of everybody (including the kitten plates)? And yea, their couplings seemed to last an infinity and a day, and the Goddesses and lesser Gods wept tears of pure joy at the sight of their purest of pure love. Thankfully, Pansy thought ahead and cast a "sperm-be-gone" spell on Draco, so that there would be no ickle Dramiones or Hermcos coming forth in nine moon cycle's time, and it was good because children are not sexy.*

And with the Marietta scenario... okay, so you're starting a secret club that the students need, yet, for psychotic teacher reasons, it is not allowed to exist. In fact, if it's ever discovered, expulsion and all sorts of completely crazy penalties are to be expected for everyone involved.
Several of the people involved, whether you like it or not, have parents in the very institution that is Cramping Your Style. What do you do?

I'm honestly surprised she didn't take more precautions with the DA, instead of just a (somewhat painful and humiliating) punishment for tattlers. It was cruel, yes. There are other things she should have/could have done. Completely out of line, OMG Hermione's like a Death Eater in the way she tortures her fellow students? No.

(For the record, she was also putting Harry and Ron at risk if either of them chose to tell Dumbledore/McGonagall/Snape, their "safe" teachers. Your name's on the paper and you break the number one rule of Fight Club Dumbledore's Army? You get pimples, my friend!)

And I don't think it's fair to say Marietta was in the right, either, since the DA was nothing more than a club for practising spells. It was against the rules, yes, but the rules it was against were recently introduced and completely ridiculous - and I do believe that we are allowed to judge if a rule is stupid or not, it's not always smart, but sometimes it's necessary.

In short, Hermione is not perfect, but stop pretending that Draco or Lucius or precious little Tom Riddle are. Because they're not morally reprehensible in the slightest, noooooo.

*I seriously messed that one up, there should be at least twenty mentions of "seed" and "bountiful busoms" and "maidenhood" in there.



(86 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]toodorkyforyou
2005-03-08 11:56 am UTC (link)
What the fuck was she supposed to do? Use her l33t ninja powers to escape from Millicent's grasp, shatter Umbridge's wand with her SUPERIOR WANDLESS MAGICK, strip down to a leather bikini and heal everyone's souls with her magical tears?
And then make the sweet lurve with Draco because they're secretly soul-mates, right there in Umbridge's office in front of everybody (including the kitten plates)? And yea, their couplings seemed to last an infinity and a day, and the Goddesses and lesser Gods wept tears of pure joy at the sight of their purest of pure love. Thankfully, Pansy thought ahead and cast a "sperm-be-gone" spell on Draco, so that there would be no ickle Dramiones or Hermcos coming forth in nine moon cycle's time, and it was good because children are not sexy.

This BEGS to be [info]metaquotes-ed. Do you mind?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-08 02:43 pm UTC (link)
Go ahead! I don't mind at all.

I'm glad you found it amusing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]toodorkyforyou, 2005-03-08 03:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkythehamstr, 2005-03-08 04:11 pm UTC

[info]dark_puck
2005-03-08 03:48 pm UTC (link)
...I think I love you.

Sorry, followed linkage from Metaquotes, and I have to ask - since when are people saying Hermione is evil? I've never heard that before?

Also... mind if I link to this rant in my LJ? I'd love to share.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-08 04:06 pm UTC (link)
Thanks.

People aren't saying that she's evil, exactly, but I've seen it said too often that her actions are completely unjust/she's completely out of line/in no way did she have the right to do what she did/the nerve of taking action against a teacher who's about to torture her best friend. And when these ideas are brought up in discussion about Draco's (and/or Lucius's) moral standings... it kind of pisses me off. Yeah, she's on a bit of a slippery slope with her ego (and potential disregard for the individual in terms of "the greater good"), but it doesn't make her evil.

Linking equals thumbs up. Yay!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dark_puck, 2005-03-08 04:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 10:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-09 10:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 10:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dark_puck, 2005-03-09 03:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lots42, 2005-03-08 06:25 pm UTC
Here via Daily Snitch
[info]thekimness
2005-03-08 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Most hillarious. Also, very true. Thanks for the laugh. :)

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Re: Here via Daily Snitch
[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-09 10:46 am UTC (link)
You're quite welcome!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]little_aphid
2005-03-08 03:59 pm UTC (link)
I don't like Hermione in OotP (has more to do with her being the author stand-in most of the time than the centaur or sneak bit), but I don't think she's evil.

In fact, pretty much Hermione's only good moments for me were those two, because JKR seemed to have pulled a Kloves in OotP and made her pretty much perfect. The centaur/Umbridge thing and the Sneak thing were her only non-perfect moments, and while I think they imply a sort of ruthlessness in her, I don't think they make her evil.

But, I can see why other people would think so, at least with the Sneak bit. We've been told for the past 5 books that Hermione is brilliant. However, the problem I (and lots of others) have with her then is that disfiguring a student for tattling on their illegal club didn't actually do anything, except by an astounding coincidence, and was rather a stupid defense.

The only reason they escaped so narrowly was that Marietta happened to see her reflection in a mirror and be startled into silence. Then Dobby came and warned them, they ran away and left the paper behind. Dumbledore covered for them, but if Marietta hadn't been memory-charmed before she could speak again, or hadn't seen her reflection, she would've told the whole story and they'd all be screwed.

What Hermione should have done was put some sort of charm on the paper that would at least warn them when someone was tattling, so they could escape easily, and maybe remember to take the paper with them so there'd be no proof. No proof = no expulsion, or at least a less certain expulsion.

The only reason for SNEAK to be written across Marietta's face would be for revenge, since it wouldn't have stopped her telling if there hadn't been a mirror there, didn't warn them, didn't, in fact, do anything useful at all, except by accident. Ergo, people see her as malicious.

I hope that was coherent, I'm at the moment doped up on cold medicine, and a somewhat incoherent writer at the best of times.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Forgot to add: Here from the Daily_Snitch
[info]little_aphid
2005-03-08 04:06 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, see the subject line.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-08 04:35 pm UTC (link)
It was plenty coherent, thanks. I was kind of in the same shape when I wrote the post.

You're right about the SNEAK incident, though. It was pretty stupid and childish of Hermione to take only that "precaution" (though I kind of like the "childish" part), and I am kind of disappointed she didn't do anything better (possibly a charm that took away a person's voice once they uttered anything about the DA, preventing them from saying anything further?).

I understand the reasoning for that argument, though - the only reason I get defensive about that incident is that, usually, once the words "That was stupid and childish of Hermione" appear on the page, they are quickly followed by "Marietta didn't do anything wrong" (at least, from what I've seen). Which is kind of, um, no. If we're going to say Hermione's wrong, then that's fine, she's wrong - but it doesn't automatically make Marietta right.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lots42, 2005-03-08 06:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-08 07:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 10:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-09 11:06 am UTC

[info]sparkythehamstr
2005-03-08 04:17 pm UTC (link)
I think maybe this has less to do with her actions and more to do with how much people seem to dislike her in general. There seems to be widespread hatred for Hermione, which I think is a damn shame. Maybe it's because I see a bit of my own childhood self in her (know-it-all who really just wants to be accepted, at least that's how I see it), but I don't understand why people hate her so much. I'll admit my memory of her in OotP is a bit hazy, as it's been a while since I read it (I'm not even a HP fangirl, I just saw this on metaquotes), but really I like the fact that (like Harry and his capslock of RAGE!) she's not perfect, she does screw up sometimes, but that makes her real, dammit. Anyway, I'll shut up now and retreat back to my own fandom.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-09 10:54 am UTC (link)
Like most of the main characters in OotP: they may be irritating, but I just can't hate them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]parapraxes
2005-03-08 04:29 pm UTC (link)
I have to agree with everything you've written. Well said and humorously well said at that!

Hermione is above average but she's also a teenager. I think what she did to Marietta was far from evil and just her way of getting revenge the way any teenager would against someone who has betrayed her and her friends. Okay, most teenagers can't give their enemies pimples but they certainly would if they could.

And errr I can't understand how she's being critcized for saving her best friend from excruciating pain. I'm glad I'm not friends with anyone who'd fault her for that.

But like a previous poster has mentioned, people just really dislike her character and will find anything to critcize.

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[info]lots42
2005-03-08 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Maybe they are criticizing her because the actions hurt Draco and the critics really are that nuts

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 10:29 am UTC

[info]argyle_s
2005-03-08 04:38 pm UTC (link)
*HOWLS*

Oh I love it!

But, you totally forgot to mention the part where Umbridge had just confessed to an attempt to murder Harry and the likelihood that she would kill or obliviate all six of them to keep that little tidbit from getting out, or the fact that she had already demonstrated a willingness to use torture when she gave Filch permission to whip Fred and George, so Hermione was pretty sure she wasn't bluffing about using the Cruciatus Curse.

The way I see it, Hermione attacked Umbridge in self defense with the only weapon she had handy. Her mind. Hermione's mind just happens to be a bit more lethal than most.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]pandoras_closet
2005-03-08 11:37 pm UTC (link)
That reminds me of a line from a favorite HP fanfic:

Their heightened sense of smell, coupled with their hypersensitivity to one another's pheromones and their completely subliminated desire for each other, meant both were ready to kill any other person who came sniffing (so to speak) around their dear, dear friend. And given that Hermione was the smartest witch around and Harry was one of the most powerful wizards to come through the school in some time, the homicides promised to be inventive and bloody to the extreme.

The fic is "An assault on the senses" and it can be found here:
http://www.astronomytower.org/authorLinks/Akscully/An_Assault_On_The_Senses/

It's worth reading just for how the author is writing Ron.

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[info]turangaleela
2005-03-08 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Word. That is all.

(Reply to this)


[info]tiferet
2005-03-08 05:55 pm UTC (link)
I'm a huge fan of Draco, Lucius, and precious little Tom Riddle, and I agree with you, so there.

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[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-08 07:28 pm UTC (link)
As a Peter fan, I appreciate that very much. I'm a big fan of loving evil characters, as long as we're allowed to accept their faults.

Sorry if it sounded like a specific attack against Draco/Lucius/Riddle fans, I'm just not happy with the "The Good characters are really all evil and the supposedly Evil characters are just misunderstood!" argument.

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(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2005-03-08 09:09 pm UTC

[info]ixtoh
2005-03-08 06:58 pm UTC (link)
The first time I read one of your entries I thought you ruled and I should add you and then I thought, well, I don't want to be one of those people that read one entry and are all OMG your so funneh do you mind if I add you??
But it's now been several entries of yours read and you're absolutely brilliant and I really do want to read more of your genius.
I'm not the kind of person that thinks that if I add someone they are obligated to add me back--I add people because I like reading what comes out of their brains and not because I want to recruit readers of my own. That said, I think I'll add you now.

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[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-09 07:27 pm UTC (link)
Awww, thanks.

*friends you back*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

here from meta
[info]shadowgardens
2005-03-08 07:29 pm UTC (link)
*dies*

That was funny, thank you.

It would be nice to see the last film directed by Quintin Tarantino and a Leather clad Ninja!Hermoine beating the shit out of whatever that little tattlers name was Kill Bill style.

Now I want to watch Fight Club -_-.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: here from meta
[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-08 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Oh, you mean like in Kill Harry? Slightly different premise, but satisfies all the same.

I'd pay an amount of dollars larger than ten but smaller than one hundred to see Quentin Tarantino direct an HP movie. Or Takashi Miike, because he'd put zombies in it and then be my boyfriend.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: here from meta - [info]shadowgardens, 2005-03-08 09:22 pm UTC

[info]sistermagpie
2005-03-08 07:37 pm UTC (link)
From DS: I think fandom shuts down a lot of discussion by labelling people good or evil instead of being able to talk about things they do in any given situation and why they do them and what that means.

There were a lot of moments in OotP that made me very uncomfortable with Hermione, even when I ultimately thought she did what she had to do, but I don't see what this would have to do with whether or not anything Marietta, Lucius, Draco or Tom Riddle did was right or wrong in any other scene. Seems to me those last three in particular are usually in the wrong no matter what Hermione does/has done. It's always important to look at the context of a characters' actions, but you can look at the context and still find the actions a problem or even wrong (as usually happens with Tom Riddle, for instance). Sometimes different fans honestly react differently to something...which is probably why people have such trouble getting along in real life.:-)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-08 08:05 pm UTC (link)
Good and Evil are very hard to judge, and are two labels I find kind of unnecessary. We could say that Draco is evil, yes, but at this point he obviously isn't. On the other hand, he isn't exactly an all-around great guy, nor can his actions be excused by "But his father obviously beats him!". The same goes for Hermione, or Dumbledore, or Ron, or even Harry (who, though I love him so, can be quite the little snot).

I realise I probably shouldn't have brought Marietta in the whole argument, but (as I sort of stated above) it was more of a knee-jerk reaction to the "Good Character 'A' is Evil because of these actions, but we can excuse Bad Character 'B' because there's obviously a reason for his/her behavior" argument.

Different reactions are understandable, but I'm just not a fan of the hypocrisy that goes on around them. That said, I've probably contradicted myself at least twenty times today, so... um. Yeah.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]oursadhearts
2005-03-08 07:50 pm UTC (link)
(here from the [info]daily_snitch)

LOL! I am completely with you! I thought Hermione kicked ass in the best of ways. She did what she had to do. Maybe she could have made better choices, but hindsight is always 20/20, even for fictional characters.

(Reply to this)


[info]tabigarasu
2005-03-08 08:23 pm UTC (link)
Also here from the daily snitch, and that rant ruled. I completely agree with what you said about it being okay to love the bad guys as long as you acknowledge their flaws. And taking it out on the "good guys" doesn't make Tom or Lucius or Draco any less evil and/or batshit insane. (I say this as an unabashed fan of Tom Riddle-before-he-totally-lost-his-grip-on-reality)

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[info]firebird5
2005-03-09 03:44 am UTC (link)
I think it's completely ridiculous that people say Lucius or Draco or Voldemort are angels, or that Hermione is evil (in fact, I don't like calling anyone good or evil), but I think we are allowed to criticise her actions. I think they're more thoughtless than 'evil' or 'immoral', but nevertheless...

If we look at OotP from Umbridge's PoV, she was just doing what she had to do. What else could she have done? Potter's mad rantings (which we have evidence for) were undermining the security of the WW and the reputation of the Ministry, which people really should just trust right now. [/channelling Umbridge]

OK, yes, I'm incapable of justifying Umbridge's actions, but no doubt she thinks what she did was right and that she had no other choice. Just like Hermione. If the books were written from Umbridge's PoV, we would sympathise with her a lot more, since it would be skewed to conform to her bias. The books are heavily biased, and objectively speaking, Hermione's actions weren't the most ethical. Marietta no doubt didn't consider the DA as important as the rest of them did nor did she think the Ministry so evil, since her mum works for it. Perhaps there are external reasons we never got to hear that might justify it all. From her perspective, what she did wasn't all that bad. She didn't deserve what she got. (Hermione tattled on Ron and Harry at the Firebolt incident as well... bit of a pot/kettle scenario there, I thought.)

If what happened to Umbridge or to Marietta (or to Montague, remember that?) had happened to her or to one of her friends, Hermione would think it appalling, evil, completely unjustifiable. That's what makes it immoral -- the selective ethics. If you wouldn't want it happen to you or your mates, no matter the situation, then it's wrong to do it to someone else.

That said, I can't stand those who try to paint the villains as perfect or their actions as excusable. I don't much like the twins for their bullying tendencies, yet I recognise that Snape (whom I like) is a great bully himself. And I like him for it... if you take that away or his greasy hair, he's not Snape anymore. I don't like Lupin's moral passiveness under the influence of peers, but I acknowledge that the characters I love more are guilty of far worse. I like Hermione for all her flaws and her selective ethics and self-righteousness. But yeah, she's done some unethical things.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]argyle_s
2005-03-09 05:39 am UTC (link)
*facedesk*

Somedays I hate the comments feature.

*sigh* I just replied to this, but clicked the "Post New Comment" link instead of the "Reply to this" link, so it didn't end up in this thread.

Not having the best week.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-09 09:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 10:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-09 11:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 12:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 12:45 pm UTC

[info]argyle_s
2005-03-09 05:22 am UTC (link)
I just don't understand this at all.

Some people are evil. There's simply no way around it. You can make all the excuses you want, but the fact is, Voldemort is simply, irredemably evil. Lucius Malfoy is a sociopath at the very least, and he is also evil. They torture innocent people for no other reason than accident of birth. They kill people without a second thought. By any definition of the word I am familiar with, they are evil. There's no shades of grey with these characters.

I'll go out on a limb and say Umbridge is evil too. She attempts to murder Harry in the first chapter off the book by setting Dementors on him (and if you don't consider the Dementor's kiss murder, you've not been reading the same books I have). She slowly and maliciously attempts to deprive Hagrid of his job, both as teacher and game keeper and to imprison him because of her own personal bigottry. He tormets Harry and his friends. She sets out to deliberately deprive them of the chance for education in a vital skill. She twice plans to use torture against a student (first by authorizing Filch to whip Fred and George and second by planning to use Cruciatus on Harry). She attempts to get Harry convicted of a crime he didn't commit. She actually uses torture against at least two students (Harry and Lee) with that blood quill (and probably a lot more). The list of things Umbridge does just goes on and on, and I've got no trouble, at all, saying she's evil. I don't give a damn how justified she thinks she is. Objectively, she's evil.

Now, I'll give you that there are some morally ambiguos characters in the HP universe. In the pensive scene, Siruis, James and Peter are pretty slimy, and Remus comes off as a coward. Yes, there's a history of antagonism between them and Snape, but compare it to the Trio/Malfoy dynamic. The trio has gotten into it with Malfoy, but never once has Harry, Ron or Hermione ever been the instigator.

As for what Hermione did to Umbridge, I look at it this way. Umbridge had confessed to attempted murder. She was guilty of multiple counts of torture and attempted torture, and she was about to commit a crime which carried a life sentence in Azkaban. Frankly, I think the whole thing easily falls into the self defense/defense of others category, but if not, how about "dispensing justice according to the established laws of the wizarding world."

How, on to the Marietta incident. First off, compairing what Marietta did to the Firebolt incident is a false analogy. Marietta wasn't concerned for the safety of the DA members. She, in fact, knew that everyone in the DA would get expelled including Cho. When Hermione told McGonagall about the Firebolt, it was because she was trying to keep Harry from getting killed.

So, just to recap:
Hermione tries to save her friends life.
Marietta rats out the DA, knowing she'll get her best friend expelled from school.

Hardly ethically equivelent actions.

As for the curse, I actually admire Hermione's restraint. We know Hermione is capable of spells of at least sixth year level, more likely she's capable of seventh year and beyond. If she'd wanted to do some real damage, I have no doubt that she could have left Mariette much, much worse off.

Yes, it didn't warn them that they'd been ratted out, but it did, very effectively, punish the person who ratted them out while letting everyone involved know exactly who had done it. Also, had Mariette not ratted them out so close to the start of the meeting, (i.e. had Hermione seen her before the meeting) she would have known that they'd been sold out. Heck, given the way gossip travels in that school, had anyone seen Mariette, Hermione would have known.

Hermione's not perfect. She does have a bit of a self-righteousness problem. She wears a Prefects badge while cheerfully breaking rules. But what she did to Mariette and Umbridge... I got no problems there.

Now, you want to get into an issue where I have trouble, let's talk about Harry using an unforgivable.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]firebird5
2005-03-09 06:53 am UTC (link)
*sigh* I just replied to this, but clicked the "Post New Comment" link instead of the "Reply to this" link

No problem. We all do that sometimes, don't we? Thank you for telling me. :)

Some people are evil.

I agree that in Harry Potter, JKR definitely does have good and evil people, but I was referring more to my personal belief that this is unrealistic. Imo, there are evil actions but I can't judge when one crosses the line and becomes evil. Personally, I don't believe that exists: humanity is a mixture of both, and all individuals have both, or at least potential for both, inside them.

I wasn't trying to argue that Umbridge's actions are any less evil because she feels justified, but that we feel they are more appalling than anything the Trio has ever done because we are led to -- we are shown it through Harry's eyes. She's on the bad side, so her actions are automatically evil, whether she feels it justified or not. Whereas, the questionable actions on the 'good side' have mitigating circumstances that make it OK. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether the target of the Cruciatus Curse deserved it, it's the action itself that's unethical. Harry tried to use it on Bellatrix, as you rightly pointed out... does that mean he deserves a punishment equal to what Umbridge got, according to the way the wizarding world dispenses justice?

First off, compairing what Marietta did to the Firebolt incident is a false analogy.

I just thought it was slightly hypocritical on Hermione's part; I wasn't trying to compare them.

As for Hermione's other actions, I don't believe that Umbridge being 'evil' made it all right for Hermione to lead her to what she knew would most likely be death. I understand the need for self-defence, but I think Hermione's plan was more calculating and extreme than I would have expected of her before OotP. The Marietta incident was revenge, punishment, as you said (not in order to warn them), and I think that shows a streak of sadism in her character that makes her rather morally ambiguous. Hermione is not shown to have limits in 'punishing' those who disrupt her plans/threaten her or her friends, and worse, she's shown to be justified in doing things (by the author) that nobody would accept from a different character.

As is mentioned in some comments above, what Hermione has done does not make Marietta or Umbridge or any other character any more right (and vice versa). I don't think one person's evil makes the other person's actions good.

I can see Hermione using an Unforgivable, too. She hasn't gone that far, yet, but I don't think she would hesitate if her friends were threatened or someone were being an obstacle to achieving something she really cared about. Because to her, what matters is not that X action is ethically wrong, or wrong on principle, but that X action can help her achieve the ends she's working for (which ends, naturally, are to make the world a better place).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 08:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ackonrad, 2005-03-09 12:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 12:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ackonrad, 2005-03-09 01:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 01:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ackonrad, 2005-03-09 01:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 02:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ackonrad, 2005-03-09 02:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 02:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ackonrad, 2005-03-09 03:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]firebird5, 2005-03-09 03:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2005-03-09 03:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 04:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2005-03-09 06:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 08:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-09 09:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]firebird5, 2005-03-09 02:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-09 03:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]firebird5, 2005-03-09 03:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 11:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 11:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 12:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]argyle_s, 2005-03-09 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 02:52 pm UTC

[info]jenbeauty
2005-03-09 07:24 am UTC (link)
Best thing I have read in awhile!!! Made me smile!

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[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-09 11:23 am UTC (link)
Thank you!

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[info]slinkhard
2005-03-09 11:01 am UTC (link)
* In short, Hermione is not perfect, but stop pretending that Draco or Lucius or precious little Tom Riddle are.

Um. I'm not really clear on how Draco/Lucius/Tom Riddle affect the issue of 'Were Hermione's actions in OotP justified or not?' Especially since none of them were present, or even affected by said actions.
Neither have I seen any comparisons between Hermione's character and either of these three. If it's become a common fandom proclamation, I haven't seen it. A link, perhaps?

* Since the DA was nothing more than a club for practising spells.

Well. That, and an apparent vigilante group in service of Harry, judging by their end actions. (And who's most prominent members have a history of violence against other students. Which, if I were Marietta, might make me a little nervous...)
Of course, this is bourne out by:

'No,' said Harry drily, 'especially as it's not exactly a homework group you're planning, is it?'

* OMG Hermione's like a Death Eater in the way she tortures her fellow students? No.

To be fair, the parallel between Hermione's methods and the Death Eaters is one suggested by the text, not fandom:

'You know what these remind me of?'
'No, what's that?'
The Death Eaters' scars. Voldemort touches one of them, and all their scars burn, and they know they've got to join him.'
'Well…yes,' said Hermione quietly, 'that is where I got the idea…'


* For the record, she was also putting Harry and Ron at risk if either of them chose to tell Dumbledore/McGonagall/Snape, their "safe" teachers.

That's an interesting observation. Lucky that Sirius guessed, rather than was told about it, also.

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[info]coocoocthulhu
2005-03-09 11:42 am UTC (link)
The most recent one I can think of is here, although I don't see the Hermione connection very often (it's usually more of a proclamation of "The Weasleys are morally corrupt, but the Malfoys are misunderstood"). I think what had got my goat was the statement of "Oh! But Draco's never tried to kill anyone, unlike Hermione".

(And, as I've said above, you do have a point about the DA and their general hostility. It was not a smart way to handle things)

To be fair, the parallel between Hermione's methods and the Death Eaters is one suggested by the text, not fandom:
To also be fair, a secret contact system isn't actually a bad idea (no matter who started it), particularly if it can be modified into a form that doesn't involve searing pain and permanent tattoos.
If she pulled a weapon out of her pocket, and said "Oh, it doesn't cause blinding pain like the Death Eater one, but it does cause them to lose all muscle control", I would be much more concerned.

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(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 12:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-09 03:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-09 04:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-09 07:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-10 01:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coocoocthulhu, 2005-03-10 08:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slinkhard, 2005-03-10 08:48 am UTC

[info]lavinialavender
2005-03-09 02:13 pm UTC (link)
Rock. On.

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